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[QUOTE=uncleshish] I believe it is the Amish craftsman who purposely instills a flaw into each
creation as his belief is only God can create something perfect.

Perfection is nice to strive for, just be willing to accept that we all fall short.[/QUOTE]

That's it then! I MUST be....AMISH! I read a quote from Bob Taylor once, where he told a big-shot banker representative or someone of the sort, "out of 100 guitars that Taylor produces we have maybe 3 that are exceptional......the other 97 are PERFECT!" (Now, no ugly letters back to me...I'm just quoting the man!).

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

Dante said something in the 'Inferno' to the effect that the closer a man comes to being perfect the more he notices his imperfections. Same with guitars, I think; the better I get at making them the more the littler flaws bother me.

Is an intentional flaw an 'imperfection'? I mean, you _meant_ to do it, right? ;)

I like the way the late Bob Lundberg thought about lutes, and the way a lot of violin makers approach their craft. The idea is not to make something 'perfect' in the sense of having a flawless surface and ideal symmetry. Rather, one should try to achieve the level of craftsmanship that allows you to make a fine object without fussing over it. Only when you can cut the corners on your violin with a single knife stroke, and get them 'right', will the instrument gain the sort of 'flow' and freedom that raises it to the level of art.

"Apprentices make mistakes, and don't know it.
Journeymen make mistakes and hide them.
Masters make mistakes, but they're part of their style."

I'm a Journeyman.....

Oh, I built one that's perfect, but it was a banjo    just kidding.

Perfect is really a different thought for each person isn't it. What is perfect, how do we define perfect? Without flaw. Well, I bet you there are builders out there who can build a guitar without any flaws, but is it "perfect"? maybe it doesn't sound quite as good as the builder would have liked, but the ascetics are perfect. Maybe is sounds precisely as the builder wanted it to, but ascetically it has some flaws.

I like what James wrote [quote=]I strive for satisfaction in what I do. [/quote]

That is what I would certainly like. Maybe we need to set the level of "perfection" at a certain bar, and when we reach that, we can be satisfied. Than like Alan Carruth, we can set the bar higher again, till we are satisfied.

Perfection is a state of mind in another dimension that we cannot see, cannot hear, will never smell, touch or taste. But it's there, I'm sure of it Rod True39045.8914699074

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

[QUOTE=Don Williams] I once made a guitar that was perfectly awful. Does that count?[/QUOTE]

Don, you crack me up.

SteveSteve Kinnaird39045.9712615741

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

My last build was closer to perfection than the prior build and the one I am working on now is closer to perfection than the last one. I figure at this rate, when I reach 100 (years of age), I will maybe have gotten as close as one could get. Perhaps when I am building guitars in that Luthier shop in the sky, my kids will say - wow dad really knew how to build a perfect guitar !!!     .

But then I doubt that will happen.

I think the builder will always find a few things that could have been done better. Most people I know who are good at this ( or any area really) recognize how to best correct mistakes and get out of "trouble". Me? I'm trying to create the world's largest collection of expensive firewood.Greg39046.7197453704

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Greg
http://garibaldiinstruments.com/

Good one Greg! Same here!

great thread and interesting thoughts!!

i've been thinking about this a lot lately. i'm working on #5 and find that the details don't look as "perfect" as #4 (which was no where near perfect compared to much of the work that i see here on the forum). i think i'm letting my production oriented personality race ahead of my skill. that will be brought back into check as i do everything with more intention and a slower pace on #6.

still, someone else above mentioned the importance of sound and playability and i think this is key. the beauty and attention to detail and aesthetic decisions are all important - but in the end they are about woodworking. how the instruments we make end up inspiring players and sounding in the hands of those players is way beyond woodworking. of course our guitars have got to look like someone cares a lot about the woodworking - that helps sell instruments and gains ones work a spot next to other great builders.

but perhaps the true pride of the instrument maker should be tickled when a) they hear someone making amazing music with the work of their hands, and b) when another builder tells them they have done a great job. in my brief experience, that's the part of guitar building that goes way beyond the "building." that's where a luthier's passion for music and working with wood intersect and for us who have experienced even just a hint of this, it's not "perfect" - it's magical.

thanks again for this thread. and thanks to everyone (pro and hobbyist alike) who share that magical intersection at the OLF.

phil

Phil, i could not have said it better, i love the fact that you used the term "Magical" because it is what gives us the drive to go on and that spark in the eye when we know that we're doing something well. Good post and yes, great thread!

I worked with a well respected luthier who said:

"Perfection is boring, but the touch of human hands is inspiring"

I've built some downright horrid (in retrospect...., at the time I thought they were fine) guitars when I first started. As your skill rises so does your expectations. I've built a few guitars recently that, flaw wise, were about as close to flawless as any I've ever seen (although they still had a few very minor things), but it only takes on binding gap, or one mis-miter, or one missed sanding swirl, ect... to remind you that you will never reach perfection. And, honestly, I don't strive for perfection. I strive to do the very best job my hands are capable of doing. If I can do that I can please myself, and that, I feel, is the best satisfaction you can attain in this craft.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Yes!

Actually, the formula is quite simple--first, become a perfect luthier...

...and not just in your own mind!

Otherwise, just do the best you can.

A couple quotes from Jose Romanillos:

"Every guitar I build is planned to be a masterpiece until I string it up, then who knows what it will be..."

"The difference between a great guitar and a so so one is small...but obvious"

As far as building a perfect guitar, my guitars are a reflection of my current state of ability and skill, both getting better but far from perfect. They are probably never as bad as I see them but are always not a good as I want them to be.

I on the other hand, like the rest of us and all the rest of God's creation am perfectly flawed in some way that makes me unique

[QUOTE=John Mayes] I strive to do the very best job my hands are capable of doing. If I can do that I can please myself, and that, I feel, is the best satisfaction you can attain in this craft.[/QUOTE]

I'd say that pretty much sums up my feelings on the issue. In the end your instrument is a product of your motivation and skill. "perfection" can be defined by anyone, but it is subjectively meaningless.

I was told once that my mandolin lacks that "Loar" sound, as if that was my intention. I told him quite plainly that the sound is thin, crisp and not at all like a Loar, but it is what I wanted. Someone's "perfect" is another person's nightmare, even with the same person over a period of time. I've changed my attitude since then, and my skill has increased but perfection is not an issue. If the instrument is what you wanted, then it is good, if not, then you've learned (hopefully) what you need for next time. Either way you win--that is until your customer returns it, which is an entirely different deal. expecting not to see flaws in a human or a human product is a formula for despair and that won't get you anywhere. Just do your best and be okay with that. oKay... must be done..

I made my mind up that number 5 was going to be "perfect" and tried ultra hard to achieve it. I was more disappointed than usual. A couple months ago, I took spare parts I had laying around and some wood that I was not trilled about and set out to "throw together" a guitar. It turned out to be my best built and absolutely best sounding guitar I have ever built. I like it so much, I'm selling my Collings and keeping this one as my personal player! So, I'm not thinking of perfection anymore.

When I was working with Carleen Hutchins there was another student who was determined that his first instrument would be 'perfect'. I built about six in the time he was working on his one, and I don't think he ever finished it. Carleen said that if she could only have averaged the two of us, she'd have two pretty good violin makers.

My Grandfather use to say That "a job well done consists of knowledge combined with best effort and perseverance. But a job done perfectly contains only vanity"MichaelP39048.4485300926

For the builders out there with quite a few under their belt, how often do you get an emotional connection to "the one". I know all them must be pretty special, but I'm just starting out, and cannot imagine the time yet when I'd be ready to sell one.

I was on Baranik's site the other day and looking at his number 100 he has profiled, and got to wondering if he kept that for his personal collection. I can just imagine that no matter what, looking at number 1 next to number XXX would always put a smile on your face.

So are there some out there who are hording those "special" ones? Or are the building schedules just too demanding?

Some advice I heard recently which I shall pass on, which seems broadly applicable:

1) Show up;
2) Be prepared;
3) Do your best; and
4) Don't be too attached to the outcome.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

The thing is, of course, that by the time I've finished one, I know where all the mistakes are. I just want to get it out of the shop so that I can build something _good_...

;)